Chapter 2, "You're Not the Indian I Had in Mind"
Please respond to one or more of the following prompts in 2-3 paragraphs.
- According to King, what's wrong with "postcard Indians" or the photographs Edward Curtis made of Native peoples?
- Why does King tell the story about when he asked "Karen Butler" to the prom? And how does this story fit into the broader themes of the chapter?
- What are some of the superficial ways people use to decide who is a real, "authentic" Indian?
- Is there a difference between a stereotypical image of an Indian and a racist image? Find an example of each in this chapter.
Afterwards, please comment on two of your peers' responses.
#2)
ReplyDeleteHow the story about "Karen Butler" fits in this chapter is because this chapter is about Indians being treated differently than anyone. King couldn't go to prom with Karen because he was an Indian and her parents didn't except that. That's why King tells the story about Karen, is because he was being treated differently because he was Indian and couldn't go somewhere with someone he liked because of that.
I agree. Karen's dad thought he was Mexican, but was not. Then, on the boat to New Zealand, he said he was Indian and they were suspicious of him afterwards. Some people are still like this today but with African Americans generally. This chapter was racist, just in the sense that he couldn't go to prom with a girl he liked just because he was different.
DeleteI believe that the story fits into this chapter for this reason too. It was natives being treated differently and even though Karen's parents thought he was Mexican they were not accepting to him being different.
Delete(#2) King tells the story about when he asked "Karen Butler" to the prom because he had confidence enough to do it. He says he wasn't the best looking "creature" because he had pimples, he was tall and skinny, and had no coordination whatsoever. Also, Karen's mom was a schoolteacher, while his mom ran a small beauty shop out of a converted garage. Her dad was a doctor, they lived in the upper middle class, while King's family wasn't. Karen had a heart defect, so he figured that being well off with a heart defect had been pretty similar as to being poor with pimples. Then, he asked her to go to prom with him, and she said yes. However, about a week before the prom, Karen called him to say she couldn't go to the dance after all, because her father didn't want her dating Mexicans. King was not Mexican, he was North American Indian.
ReplyDeleteThis story fits into the broader theme in this chapter because this chapter is discriminating towards Indians. This chapter tells about how people expect Indians to look a certain way, nobody knew what King was on the boat to New Zealand, and after King said he was North American Indian, they were suspicious because they didn't know any Indians since they had been separated. Additionally, King spent almost a year in New Zealand and one day an official with the immigration department called to tell him he only had a 30-day tourist visa and was in violation of New Zealand immigration laws. So King asked him if he had any chance of applying for an immigration visa, and the official said he wasn't sure if it was possible, but he would check into it. And in the meantime, if he would give him some information such as name, hair color, eye color, height, weight and race. As soon as King said Indian, the official said he didn't believe that they took applications from Indians because of a policy they had. Overall, King telling the story of him asking "Karen Butler" to the prom fits into the broader themes of this chapter because it is racist in a way and people had arrogant attitudes if you weren't like them or looked like them.
i was going to do this question also and i had the same ideas written down, nice job.
DeleteGood points made here Sasha. It does talk about the racist veiws of everyone in his town.
DeleteVery well explained, and you had very good points. Nice detail. I like how you said "fits into the broader themes of this chapter because it is racist in a way and people had arrogant attitudes if you weren't like them or looked like them." I agree completely.
Deletegood points here sasha
DeleteI am responding to question number three. One of the superficial ways people use to decide who is a real "authentic" Indian is by the way you dress. Another way how people decide is by their hair. The third reason how people decide if you're a real Indian is by facial hair; Indian's had no facial hair and if you had facial hair you were not considered a true Indian. The last reason how people decide if you're a real "authentic" Indian is by Solitary men moving across prairies.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the things you say here, but what about artifacts that are often found with Indian tribes?
Deletei agree
DeleteI agree with you Shelly, but going off of what Collin said, what about the artifacts and tools that those Indians used?
DeleteNot only the artifacts or the tools, but they didn't really looks into their beliefs, morals, or the way they live either. They just wanted the appearance of what they thought an "authentic Indian" was.
Deletesomewhere in the chapter it also said that they needed to be a part of the rituals indians did. or if they were a singer or dancer in the rituals
DeleteI could be wrong, but I don't remember King going into explicit detail about tools and/or artifacts. He did stress the importance of being "visually Indian" but also about being born on a reserve, being fluent in a native tongue, participating in ceremonies, and being full-blooded. Also, Native Americans covered the entire nation, and those roaming the prairies were not the only type. If you think about tribes native to our area, they would have looked nothing like those of where King was raised.
Deletei think kim may be correct
DeleteWhat was wrong with "postcard Indians" was that people were trying to look for the wrong image of the indian. They were looking for the indian of the American Romantic period; an Indian that captured glorification of the past, the solitary, male Indian who was the last of his kind. During this time people didn't want to see the vibrant culture that was ever changing. When you have that view in your head and that narrow mind set you can't really get past it in order to see the truth of the matter even if it's staring you right in the face. All in all, the flaw was in the motivation.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you Emily. They were looking at the romantic period version. I love the way you worded this... So much better than the way I did!
DeleteThis is completley true! Not how i worded mine, but definitley a great way of putting how they saw the Indians!
DeleteI definatly agree that the postcards showed past indians, not the way they are actualy scene today.
DeleteYes totally true. Very well worded. Never saw the narrow minded part before. Poor Native Americans. The post cards might as well of been a guy riding a unicorn singing into a penguin microphone, because the Native Americans were very far off.
DeleteAccording to Thomas King Edward Curtis's photographs were not authentic Indian photographs, Edward Curtis asked the native american indians to dress to look "authentic". He asked them to dress in headdresses, wear wigs and beads, and sit on top of horses with lances and spears. He wanted the indians to look this way so that the white people would buy the postcards.
ReplyDeleteKing believed that the postcards were stereotypical towards Indians because what was projected on the postcards was not what they were actually like.Although king disagreed with many of Curtis's methods, king agreed that it helped save the indians because he thought the indians were dying out.
I agree with this Andrew. King didn't particularly like the way people in general talked about Indians, and the way they depicted them. They figured Indians were still like they were a long time ago with headdresses, long hair, beads and horses, but the truth of the matter was that they weren't like the "authentic" Indians. So Edward Curtis had made them look "authentic" to sell the postcards.
DeleteThat's exactly what I got from the book Andrew.
DeleteI completely agree with you Andrew, these postcards make Indians out in the complete opposite way of who they truly are.
DeleteThis is very similar information that I got in the reading, ecspecially your first paragraph. I completley agree with what you put.
DeleteAndrew nailed it on the head, Mr. King doesn't like people talking trash about Indians. Its shameful how people treat/treated Indians.
Delete#2 -
ReplyDeleteKing tells us about what it takes to be considered an "authentic" Indian. You must dress like a real Indian, wearing headdresses, wigs, beads, and sit on horses. "Authentic" Indians have no facial hair, so if you had facial hair you were not deemed an authentic Indian.
this is what i wrote but what about the postcards, how did they help the Indians?
Deleteyour right if you had facial hair you were not indian
Delete#3-
ReplyDeletewhen anyone thinks of "authentic" indians they think of headresses, bow and arrows, people who sit on horses and you must dress like a native american. In the story if you had facial hair you were not authentic indian.
After i got done writing my responce, I realised my beggining was just like yours.
DeleteWhile I do agree with this, I think there were more specific attributes given, not just physical ones.
DeleteWhen I think indian I think of Crazy Horse and Geronimo I think of bow and arrows and headdresses. Thoses are the superfical way I see native Americans. In the book for instance Edward Sherif Curtis photographed Native Americans but Curtis also would bring other Native American clothing so hecould make the Native Americans look more Native American.
ReplyDelete#3
I totally agree with you.
DeleteI also agree with what you have to say
Delete#3
ReplyDeleteSome ways people tell that Indians are "authentic" is if they are wearing "Indian-like clothing." Also if they are shaved. In this chapter, Curtis also talked the Indians into wearing wigs. This is what he thought to be an "Authentic Indian."
When some people think of an "Authentic Indian," they think of campfires in the woods, bows and arrows, and they think of head-dresses and beads. Well, that is not what they actually are. Indians do not shave their faces all the time, they do not wear wigs, they do not always dress in beads. They are more of the Spiritual type. The Indians are not savages as people make them out to be.
Yeah, so many people think of Indians as savage people. That could be mainly because of how the modern world portrays them though.
DeleteIn the book, I believe King tells the story about Karen Butler as a way to prove some of his statements about how others view people of different races. There are some people, like Karen, who don't really mind people from different races. Then towards the end of that story you have Karen's father who could represent those who are completely racist.
ReplyDeleteThat makes sense that the purpose of the story was to demonstrate the two different sides to the issue.
DeleteThis is how I thought about explaining it.
DeleteThere are many different ways that people describe an Indian. We each have our own description of what an Indian should look like plus what society has influenced what an Indian should look like. But, the most ways we think of Indians is actually raciest a lot of the time. In the book The Truth About Stories. by Thomas King, shows us the difference between the raciest image of an Indian and what they really look like.
ReplyDeleteThe raciest way of thinking of what Indians look like is how King describes the post cards he has. He says “They are simply pictures and paintings of Indians in feathers and leathers, sitting in or around tipis or chasing buffalo on pinto ponies.” King 35. That’s the stereotypical Indian that our society had come up with. Whereas in reality Indians look like us. They dress like us, they walk, talk and act like us, and we are basically the same. The only difference between us the Natives is blood. Some do dress up once in a while for like a ceremony thing. But other than that you won’t know if someone’s in Indian unless they come up to you and say they are. Or if they have a bumper sticker that says they are.
I agree that society has deffinatly influenced us to have our own visions as to what an Inidian is "suposed" to look like.
DeleteAccording to king, there were a few things wrong with the postcard Indians. Mostly because that is not how they normally dressed. They are human beings just like anyone else and can wear what they want, do what they want because they are their own person, but wearing the feathered headdresses and leather made them “Indian”. People didn’t want to see a native dressed up in normal clothes just like they would have on. That is what they imagined as “Indian” anything else wasn’t “Indian” because it didn’t fit into their racial profile. Things like the postcard Indian or the Indians in the Books that were mentioned a few times within this chapter skew peoples idea of what Indians are. Everyone sees them as the headdress wearing, singing, dancing, spiritual being while really they are just people faking it to continue the “Indian” way that people are too close minded to let go of. While im sure some of those Indians actually did dress like that many didn’t.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you Sawyer when you say that people couldn't let go of the fact that Indians had to look like they do in the postcards.
DeleteI agree, and I like how you basically said that Society had a big influence on them.
Deletei agree
DeleteMy response for chapter two is using prompts 1 and 2:
ReplyDelete"Indians in feathers and leathers, sitting in or around tipis or chasing buffalo on pinto ponies." These are the images people have of "authentic" Indians, when in reality they do not dress like that pr necessarily act like that. They are just like anyone else they just have a different culture then you and I. Also with the golf postcard how it names the white men but it's like the Indians do not have a name. "Postcard Indians" are what people expect Indians to look like because of these postcards and even old western shows portray Indians as such. According to King, Indians are portrayed as something very different then what they actually are and that's what he thinks is wrong with "postcard Indians."
King tells us the story of him asking Karen to the prom because he wants to tell us how people aren't what you expect them to look like. Such as how a week before the prom, after Karen had already agreed to go with him, her father said she couldn't because he didn't want her to be dating a Mexican. This relates to the rest of the chapter because later on King tells us about Will Rogers. Will Rogers is an Indian who people thought was an authentic cowboy when in reality he was a Cree Indian. Even though he was an Indian he was also a cowboy but people didn't think this because he looked like a cowboy, not an Indian. Just like the title of this chapter people think "you're not the Indian I had in mind." People think that just because they don't look like "postcard Indians" or even look like their own race that they're not "authentic."
Great way to connect both responses into one. They do tie together in alot of the same ways. Nice details.
DeleteI really liked how you connected the two ideas.
ReplyDelete#1). Curtis went out looking for the imaginative construct of Indians. The Indians that he had pictured in his mind, were not the real ones that he was doing research on. He brought with him "props" in order to make the Indians look the way he wanted to imagine how they looked. This made King upset because he was looking for the wrong image of Indians. It made people want to see more Indians that were dressed in headdresses and rode on horses. This was the stereotypical way that Indians were seen. No one wanted to see an Indian wearing a t-shirt and jeans because they weren't real "Indians" if they did. Curtis paid them to dress in the costumes so that the pictures would look more "authentic".
ReplyDeleteIn King's mind,Curtis was doing the wrong thing. He wanted too see the pictures on postcards as Curtis had found the Indians. In their "nature habitat", you could put it. Not set up in a position, with a back drop, and in full headdress and shaved faces. They were REAL people and King wnated to see them like they really were. Not how someone else saw them in their mind.
King liked the concept of Curtis's ideas, what he didn't like what how he went about doing it. Curtis had Indians dress in clothing that belonged to another tribe which would be like a slap in the face really
Delete#1
ReplyDeleteAccording to king, the Indians on the post cards were stereotypical and what most people pictured Indians to look like many years ago. King knows that now a days, most Indians dress and act the same as everyone else. The post cards portraied them as having to dress in full authentic costume 24/7.
King Knows that you dont have to go around with a shirt that says "Im an Inidian" to prove you are. He knows that you dont even have to prove youre an Indian at all. As long as you know who you are thats all that matters. The postcards just continue to lead people down the path thinking that thats how all Inidians dress. Its possible for them to live a normal life just like anyone else. They do not constantly have to wear head peices and featehrs, they can dress however they want because they know who they are.
I agree Rachael indians dress normal nowadays because they dont do the same practices that they did in the old days.
DeleteChapter 2
ReplyDeletequestion 1
Brodie Jackson
According to king the postcard indians are wrong because it doesn't show the indians as they were before europeans. The postcards that he was talking about in the book was when they took a picture of an indian fishing with tourist in the background. The post cards should of been with the indians in there little camps on the prairie that hasn't seen europeans before. They are in their traditional dress.
On page 57 King ask a question " How will taking photos of native artist benefit Native people."He answered this question by showing other people that they need improvement
ReplyDelete(#3) When people think of an “authentic indian” the think of a man with a bow and arrow shirtless running threw the forest. but then there would be people like that today doing the same. King said that native culture is a changing vibrant thing. That mean’s that the way they look will change.we have here in vermont have local events like the pow wow in the park in swanton,people dress up on occasion which is the key word. native americans now look like you or me. it doesn’t make them less authentic.
i like how you made a connection to vermont
DeleteWhat are some of the superficial ways people use to decide who is a real, "authentic" Indian?
ReplyDeleteA superficial way tell if someone is a real Indian is if they have no facial hair. The way they dressed. Every piece of clothing was hand made. Today there are no authentic Indians, most of there culture has been obliterated. I wish there were some but even on reservations they dress in jeans. They have came around to technology. Sorry for getting off topic but Native Americans are gone.
Hair was very important to Native Americans. The many grew there hair out to show respect to women, not to wear a wig and pose for a postcard. A collaboration of dress, facial hair, and hair on your head. Allows people to make a superficial way to tell if you are Native American.
#2
ReplyDeleteKing told the story about prom to prove a point on how people look at other people. The story about the prom fits into the rest of the chapter because King was discriminated on his looks. He was not allowed to go to the prom with Karen because her father thought he was Mexican. This ties in to how the Indians were discriminated on how they didn’t look like authentic Indians.
#3
ReplyDeletePeople had many superficial ways to decide if an Indian was authentic. One of the ways was how the person talked. Another way was in how they dressed. Also people envisioned an authentic Indian carried around handmade tools and weapons. If an Indian didn’t have any of the features people thought to be true they were not authentic.
#3
ReplyDeleteI think superficial ways people judge "authentic" Indians ties in closely with what is wrong with "postcard Indians", as well as with stereotyping versus racism. I'm going to focus more heavily on the judgment of an "authentic" Indian.
The way people judge the authenticity of an Indian varies depending on where they are from. Californians have a different reaction toward Natives than do Canadians and New Zealanders. Everyone has certain expectations of what an Indian looks like, however. Curtis, when photographing Indians, brought along "Indian" paraphernalia such as wigs, blankets, painted backdrops, and clothing. He made them shave and wear the dressings of other tribes as well. Being asked to wear the clothing and trophies of another tribe would have been a great insult toward a group who were thought to be "less than" or in need of help. He felt that if he came across a Native who didn't look Indian enough, these props would make up for the lack of native visual clues. According to King, someone could be an Indian, but not an Indian (italicized).
Someone, to be considered an Indian, would have had to been born on a reserve, although a small rural town would suffice. They would have to be at least semi-fluent in their native tongue, participate in tribal ceremonies, and there would be importance placed on whether or not they were full-blooded Indians.
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ReplyDelete#1)
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter, King tells tyhe reader about Edward Curtis' photographs. He talks about how Curtis creates these "postcard Indians".
We the reader are told that Edward Curtis is a writer and photographer, who traveled many places to photograph native people. King describes how Curtis would carry extra "props" for his photo's if the people did not look like an "authentic" indian. He would dress them up in big headresses, feathers, knives, and make them look like the ideal indian.
King didnt like the idea of playing dressup. King thought that if you're indian, you're indian. It should not depend on being in a headress and fancy outfits all the time. It was more about who you were and where you came from.
King did not agree with the thought of an "authentic" idian. He himself was indian, but he did not dress is large headwear and smoke and walk a certain way all of the time. He looked like everyone else, but with a different skin tone. King thought it was wrong to dressup and indian, to look how the public expects them to be.
I am responding to the first question being “Whats wrong with “postcard Indians” or the photographs Edward Curtis made of Native people”. The thing that is wrong with the photographs Edward Curtis took is that it wasn’t how indians truly looked. He dressed some of these Indians up to make it look like they were societys ideal indian. This made people think that all Indians were alike and the basic idea of an Indian hadn’t been altered from the way indians truly acted and dressed.
ReplyDeleteThe reason why the postcards were wrong and still are is because it spread the image world wide through these postcards saying that these indians are still dressing and acting as the photographer taking the pictures is dressing them therefore making the way the early explorers like Christopher Columbus concluded them without any actual facts.
#1, What's wrong with postcard indians or the photos that Edward Curtis made?
ReplyDeleteEveryone has their own interpretation of what someone (a group of people, culture, ethnicity)should look like. When you think of Indians, you think of large feather hats, dark skin, and ti pis. Curtis didn't want his "Indian" photographs to turn out looking anything but stereotypical, and when he came to find that not all people of Indian descent look like they do in the old movies, he had them wear clothes, hats and other props that would fit the picture that he had painted in his head of what they should look like, so they would seem more "authentic".
King didn't think that this was right, and a little bit racist. When he shared his story about how he couldn't go to the prom with Karen Butler, because her father didn't want her dating a Mexican. I though it fit quite well because being confined to one group/culture, you are expected to act or be a certain way and when you aren't, it somehow surprises most people. Although i'm sure Curtis had meant no harm, he seemed to be a little prejudice. I think King was just trying to explain how sometimes society has a big influence on what someone should look like, that including Indians.
King told the story about Karen Butler because it shows racism , at the time king asked Karen it was a period where racism was a big thing and if you were different you were judged for it. King asked Karen to prom and she said yes seeing no problem with him but Karen dad said she couldn't go because he thought king was a Mexican that wraps into the idea the over all capture that king not looking like a Indian that Karen dad just assumed he was a Mexican.
ReplyDeleteKing told the story about the girl karen to show how he an indian was treated differently than other people. Sense he was indian karens father didnt allow her to go to the dance with her because of the somewhat segregation there was between the whites and mexicans.
ReplyDeleteAgreed
DeleteKing tells the story about when he asked Karen Butler to prom because it had to do with people being treated differently. He was supposed to go to prom with Karen but her parents thought he was Mexican. They wouldn't let her go with him because of this.
ReplyDeleteThe story fits in with the broader theme of the chapter because the rest of the chapter was talking about how natives were treated differently. They were only treated differently because of the way that they looked. If you fit the the looks of the stereotypical native you were treated differently.
I couldnt have said the part about natives any better myself, it was wrong what they did to different people.
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ReplyDelete#2
ReplyDeleteKing tells us the story about "Karen Butler" because it shows he was growing up in a racists time period. It also shows that Indians were treated differently, even though Karen's parents thought he was a Mexican.
This story fits into the broader theme of the chapter because the other stories he told in the chapter were also about Natives being judged and treated differently.
Why does King tell the story about when he asked "Karen Butler" to the prom? And how does this story fit into the broader themes of the chapter?
ReplyDeleteThe story about King asking Karen Butler to prom is a very powerful story, I believe the most powerful in the book. I do not believe in racism. King says he realized people were also "lokking at him" meaning in a racist fasion. I agree with king that racism can be very dangerous I don't know how much I agree with the humerous point of view.
Chapter 2 Q4: It all depends on the point of view of the person you ask because, a stereotypical image can be seen as a racist image, while a racist image could appear as a stereotypical image. It also depends on how the artist sees it as well. All in all yes there is a difference between a stereotypical and a racist image. One stereotypical image is described on page 35, "A third cartoon of an indian man fishing in the background while, in the foreground, a tourist takes a picture of the man's wife and their seven kids with the rather puerile caption,"and what does the chief do when hes not fishing?"". But an example of a racist image is described on page 35, "The photograph was taken by Byron Harmon and shows to Banff locals, caddying for what looks to be five indians who are identified as "two stoney indian chiefs."" This can be considered racist because it is picking on indians.
ReplyDelete