Chapter 5, "'You'll never believe what happened' Is Always a Great Way to Start"
Please respond to one or more of the following prompts in 2-3 paragraphs.
- Is the story of Coyote and the ducks that King tells in this chapter a "saving story," or what is its purpose?
- Describe in your own words the ways in which the Canadian and US governments have tried to "legislate Indians out of existence." Were you surprised at all to learn how much federal governments are involved in defining who is an Indian, what lands are held by Indians, as well as whether Indians can practice their own traditions?
- How does King's experience as a deer culler fit into the rest of the chapter?
Afterwards, please comment on two of your peers' responses.
(#3) King went to New Zealand in 1964, it was a beautiful country but had a deer problem. This problem came from a "lad" who had decided to import deer so hunters could have something bigger to shoot than possums and trout, and since deer had no natural enemies- they multiplied and began eating up the countryside. This caused a great deal of consternation in the forest industry, and government, in response to complaints from their lumber constituents- they put together "a band of merry men" to go into the woods and control the problem, which were called deer cullers. King needed a job, and deer culling sounded excited for some reason to him at the time. Deer cullers worked in pairs, typically two men in a small log cabin with a fireplace, King's partners name was Paul Gibson. He was "living simply in the woods, living off the land, culling deer until all the deer in the country had been culled." Paul told King that deer and sheep both eat vegetation and can cause erosion which will ruin the forest industry, but sheep have value and deer don't, and that's why they shoot them. Additionally, Paul says to King that he should get along with the deer just fine because he is an Indian and more or less like Maoris. The fifth day King was in the woods, Paul sent him out on his own and he shot his first deer, that afternoon he packed his stuff and left Paul a note that said "Thanks" and left. He didn't leave deer culling because he was afraid Paul was right about the world, saying that things either had value or they didn't. He didn't leave because he understood that if you believed in such a world, there would be no end to the killing. In fact, he left because there was no point in his staying- killing one deer had been more than enough, and him doing that once, he could not imagine doing it again.
ReplyDeleteKing's experience as a deer culler fits into the rest of the chapter because the rest of the chapter was talking about how Indians were ruining lands and ruining things with their beliefs and customs. Canadian and U.S. governments tried to "legislate Indians out of existence", just as the government put a band of men together to go into the woods and kill off the deer problem in New Zealand. Also, in this chapter, it mentions how Indians were fighting for their rights and trying not to disappear, like deer when they shouldn't be treated the way they are. The government had originally stripped Indians of their status, which is like them stripping the deer of their status since the "lad" that imported them was only looking for something bigger to shoot than possums and trout. These are reasons how King's experience as a deer culler fits into the rest of this chapter.
I am responding to question number two. The Canadian and US governments have tried to legislate Indians out of existence by doing many things to them. The government made the Indians start wearing clothing that wasn't traditional to them. They also started reducing tribal estate from the Indians driving them out of their own land that they had owned at one point. The ways the Canadian government started pushing Indians out of existence was by capitalism, taxism, and aggression. I was surprised at how the federal government decided who was an Indian. The government also had things to do to not be a Indian; get a degree, serve in the military, and become a clergyman or a lawyer and you would no longer be a Indian. How is it the governments choose on who is a Indian and who is not? They do not have the rights to determine that.
ReplyDeleteI agree Shelley, they shouldn't have had the rights to determine who was and who wasn't an Indian. That's like determining if you are or aren't an American. It was wrong what they did to push them out of existence. It wasn't right in general.
Deletei agree with you both, nobody had the right to tell you who you are.
DeleteI agree with you guys but to be the devils advocate. Would we be an America that we know today if the government didn't move the Natives? What kind of super power would we be if we were soft at first?
DeleteI agree with you it wasnt fair the government took atvantage of its own power
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ReplyDeletequestion 2
ReplyDeleteBoth the Canadian government and the U.S. government have tried in several different ways to get rid of the Indian population. It started out with killing the Indians, but they soon realized that wars coast money and lives. So they turned to politics or “legislation”. Each government keeps track of how many Indians, and how much of their land is left out there, and the goal of the legislation is to legalize Indians out of existence and take their land now that is “no longer Indians”. One way that the Canada tried to get rid of their Indians was through the 1876 Indian act. Basically what this means is that if a person who was recognized as a Native tries to get a government job or a public job (such as teachers, librarians, construction workers, ECT), they would no longer be considered Indians at that point. And with people needing jobs, the Indians didn’t have much of a job choice unless they went into their own practice. If you got a degree you are also no longer an Indian in the government’s eyes.
One way that the U.S. government tried to get rid of Indians through legislation, was the 1953 termination act. The government pulled all the Indians out of poverty and into modern society. This sounded like a great idea but behind the curtain, it allowed the government to no longer protect tribes and give up treaty obligations and special concessions to all tribes. So the government is basically saying “Yes we will help you get into modern society, but we are no longer going to protect you, so if you get shot, here’s a Band-Aid. That’s all you’re getting. Good luck!” It’s crazy to think that this is how our government tries to get rid of Indians
I feel like the government was trying anything and everything to "get rid" of the Indians. It was hard for the Indians, and the government was not helping and they were awful.
DeleteThe government was forcing the Indians to become extinct
DeleteWell said buddy, i agree.
DeleteThey were trying make the countries the way they wanted it not the way the Indians did.
DeleteThe government also started spading and neutering Natives. Why kill them if in one generation half of them die. Hope you guys notice that our great government is wheedling a double edge sword.
DeleteQuestion#1
ReplyDeleteThe story that king tells in chapter 5 is about a greedy coyote that longs for more than his beautiful fur coat. The coyote spots a group of ducks with beautiful feathers, even more so than his fur coat. He asks the ducks if he could have one feather to wear, although the feathers are really stunning, the other animals do not think it made much of a change at all. The coyote kept on going back for more feathers until almost all of them were gone. While he had most of the feathers he did not take care of them, therefore they became dirty. He then threw the feathers away and blamed the humans for destroying the feathers.
I don't believe that this story is a "saving story". The coyote does not save anybody, instead he is more selfish and blackmails the ducks to give him their feathers.
I think that the coyote represents the white people and the ducks represent the Indians. The feathers in the story represent land,and culture. The humans represent the government. The coyote or white people keep creating laws so that the Indians have to relinquish their land to the white man. The humans are like their treaties that the white man created but they were not fair to the Indians.
We see very closely when it comes to the purpose behind this story. I agree with you Andrew.
Deletei agree too
DeleteI feel the same way Andrew, this is a story used to try and make the information about the government and the Natives more clear. It helps keep the readers more interested in the way he talks about the government and it's control over the Natives.
Deletei think the story was there before the government though. i think it is just trying to represent greed but king ties it into the greed of the government
Delete#1 -
ReplyDeleteThe coyote and ducks story is not a saving story, but has a message behind it. The coyote was greedy and pompous, thinking his fur coat was the greatest thing. Until he heard that feathers were the new best thing, Coyote walked around like he was all that. He saw six ducks singing and swimming in circles. He watched as they cleaned each feather, and groomed and fluffed them until they glowed under the light. Coyote, being his normal self, wanted to get some feathers of his own.
Coyote used deception to fool the ducks into giving him a few feathers. He again walked around like he was all that, but he was still not satisfied when he desired more. He went back to the ducks and got half of their feathers, fooling them once again. Although, he never took good care of his feathers, so they got dirty and looked hideous. Coyote returned to the ducks and told them to fight the humans with him. We all know what would happen, the ducks would lose every feather and nothing would be spectacularly happy.
This story is not a "saving story", but it has a purpose of being told. It represents the way the government has used the Indians. They take away from the Indians until there is nothing left.
I agree, I chose the same question and answered a little different, but I like the point you made that he thought his fur was the best of the best until he was told otherwise.
Delete#1
ReplyDeleteThe story of coyote and the ducks is about a coyote who pretty much loves his fur coat to death. But one day he saw some ducks with very pretty feathers that shimmered in the sun. So he asked for one and got one, so after he got the feather he showed his friends the feather but everyone liked the feather but they all said it looked lopsided, so he went to ask the ducks for one more to even the feathers out.
So now coyote has two feathers to show his friends. They all liked but Raven said anybody whos anybody has feathers now a days. So coyote went to the ducks with a plan to get more feathers and when he got the feathers he had them for weeks but never cleaned the feathers so of course they got dirty and got torn so he through them away. So of course coyote went back to the ducks for more feathers. The message of the story was that the coyote was over comed by greed.
you could have tied in how the story related to the struggles of the Indians with the government
DeleteI thought it kind of had to do with greed too.
DeleteThe story of the coyote and the ducks if anything was a story about balance. All of the problems started when the coyote became over come with greed and the need to show off.When it comes to greed, nothing is ever enough. There's that constant need that the coyote had to get more and more feathers. It was a need that couldn't be satisfied.Once things lose balance everything starts to go awry. I think the same goes for the world today, if we had more balance I think everything would be more calm and peaceful.
ReplyDeleteThe way i responded to this question is way different then the way you chose too. I never thought of it this way, but i agree with your points!
DeleteI didn't think about it like this but I am glad that you thought differently. Made me look at it differently.
DeleteI don't think I really considered the fact of the balance. It completely slipped my mind actually, thank you for mentioning it.
Delete#1). In this Chapter, King tells a story about a greedy Coyote, and a group of Ducks. It is not a "saving story", but more of an explaining story. The Coyote cares about nothing more than his beautiful fur coat. Once he catches sight of the Ducks and their feathers, he wants to have them to himself. He tricks the Ducks into giving him all of their precious feathers. The Coyote cares about no one, except himself and how he looks.
ReplyDeleteThis story is used to give a more clear description,and represents the way the government has used the Indians. They take away from the Indians until there is nothing left. Just like the Coyote took all of the feathers from the Ducks, until they had nothing left.
I thought the same. What the government did to the Indians was horrible.
DeleteI agree with what you said, and I think it was very well worded and thought out. The only thing I am really left wondering is what your opinion is about the definition of a saving story.
DeleteIn this chapter King tells a very interesting story about a greedy Coyote and Some Ducks with beautiful long feathers. The Coyote starts the story admiring his beautiful fur coat, saying how it was the best thing. That was when he noticed the Ducks singing and dancing in the water and thought he needed just one of their feathers. Greed overcame the Coyote and when he got one and realized it wasn't enough, he wanted more and more.
ReplyDeleteThis story is definitely not what you would call a "saving story". The Coyote lied, cheated, and stole from the poor innocent Ducks. He wasn't saving them from any coming dangers. He was just fulfilling his own selfish needs.
#1
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning of chapter 5, King tells a story about a very greedy coyote and a bunch of ducks. Throughout the story, the coyote keeps tricking the ducks into giving it all of their feathers. In the end, nobody was satisfied. The ducks had lost all of their feathers, and the coyote never cleaned his feathers, so they got dirty.
This story was not a "saving story", this story has purpose to it. This story shows us what the government was doing to the Indians. The government was taking away all of the recourses the Indians had harvested and left them with nothing. There is no way that this story was a saving story.
saving stories do have a purpose to them, at least in my opinion. this isn't a saving story because it is meant to be told in great length and dragged out for a great story.
DeleteYes agreed. Considering the story was meant to be told over a few days, that's reason enough for it not to be considered a "saving story". I do also agree with Brandon about the fact that it did have some hidden meaning as well.
DeleteQuestion 2
ReplyDeleteEvery Imperlist nation has had a problem with the native people. From the Romans too England and the Opiom War. No it does not surprise me that American and Canadian governments tried to overwhelm the Native American coultures that would be the only way to prevent them from protesting.
America and Canaida would try to assimulate the native people by making them wair clothing that was no their Traditional dress. They would push mix blood marrage. The two Governmants forced the Native people to fallow laws that tested them. They forced them into a captalist world and if the did not Coexsist with the US or Canadian citizens by their choice, then they were forced into it.
I agree.
DeleteWell said.
DeleteWell every Imperialistic nation except for France that is.
DeleteI chose the same question and agree and with I had some of your points in my response
DeletePeople such as Merrill E Gates, a "Friend of the Indian" thought that they had to get the savage Indian to have broader desires. To help mainstream them and make them more "intelligently selfish." The United States was able to take away 102 acres of Indian land i less than 50 years. The legislation made it so that if you got a degree you were no longer considered an Indian or if you served in the military or even a lawyer, you were stripped of you own race. In 1934 there was an Act that allowed Indians to practice their own religions, they actually had to be given permission to practice their own beliefs? These are outrageous things that the governments of the US and Canada did to these people so that the government would be happier. Yes this all surprises me because people should be able to do what they want, live where they want, etc.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the way indians were treated were wrong, and liked the key points you chose.
DeleteI didn't choose this question, but you had some great key points that made sense. You put a lot of detail in. Good job.
DeleteDescribe in your own words the ways in which the Canadian and US governments have tried to "legislate Indians out of existence." Were you surprised at all to learn how much federal governments are involved in defining who is an Indian, what lands are held by Indians, as well as whether Indians can practice their own traditions.
ReplyDeleteThe government took land from all the native tribes. Legislate is just a snake oil salesman pitch. They ruthlessly stole land from the native people, and still to this day won't give rightful land back. Just because it has a gold mine on it. The government Offered one tribe 100 million dollars. The tribe said no because all they want is the land. The land is scarred to them.
The government doesn't surprise me at all. Becoming a lawyer someway some how stops you from being Native American. Personally I have had all my rights taken from me the nice things the government says to native Americans like help in collage from grants to scholarships. Just because my so called father was adopted. We don't get anything that the government promised. "So yeah I believe what the government did without hesitation.
ReplyDelete(#1) the story has a bigger meaning. the “coyote” is to represent the white americans and the “duck”is to represent all native americans. The coyote asked for a beautiful feather to go with his already nice coat. the ducks said alright, one and no more. the coyote promised them he wouldn’t ask.Now you have ready the story already. its actually talking about how white americans wanted the land from the native americans. The native american’s were fine with giving a little bit of land. and the whites promised no more. but as time went on they became more greedy and wanted more “shiny feathers” from the native’s and tricked them into getting more and more land till the native people had small amount of land. they tricked them through legislation.
#1
ReplyDeleteKing tells the story of the Coyote and the ducks make an example and compare it to the government and Indians. The government is portrayed as the coyote and the Indians are the ducks. The coyote wanted what the ducks had in this case feathers. The government wanted the Indians land. So the government/coyote got what they wanted.
Overtime though the government/coyote wanted more. So they took more and kept on taking till there was nothing left. Even though the ducks had nothing eventually their feathers grew back as less pretty smaller feathers but they made do with what they had. The Indians had very little land but they made do with what they had. So this story could be looked at as a saving story for Indians or a metaphor for government and Indians.
I like how you compared, in detail, the relation between the legislation/Indians and the coyotes/ducks. You actually took the time to look at it more in depth than some other responses, which is a nice change to read.
DeleteThe tale of the coyote and the ducks is not by my understanding a saving story. It has some pessimistic qualities with a optimistic outcome even if it wasn’t great. Even if the ducks lost their large beautiful feathers and grew small feathers. If you think about it though they can now fly and not be weighted down by their large feathers. It has the qualities of a saving story, but it isn’t one. The reasons it isn’t because it is a story that is meant to be told in days, not a story that is meant to be told in a few minutes and to brighten your day.
ReplyDeleteThe meaning of this story is to explain the greed in the world. Greed is what was trying to be shown. King relates it to the Government greed for the Native land, the Native right, their culture. The coyote shows the greed in the world, while the ducks are innocent and they deserve better then what they got from the coyote. It relates to the legislation issue perfectly with what king is talking about but I’m sure it has happened many times throughout history.
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I agree with you there is greed everywhere. And it would help the ducks being able to fly.
Delete#3
ReplyDeleteKing makes experience as a deer culler fit into the chapter, broken up to fit with the correlating paragraphs about legislation, and about the ducks and the coyote. As the line of legislation progresses, talking about the elimination of Indians, King tells of him meeting up with a man. Thus nab takes him in, although out of responsibility, not generosity. He teaches King important skills and techniques. The man teaches him how to track and follow prey. King goes out on his own, kills his first deer, and leaves.
The Indians "associate" with the government. Deals are tried and laws are passed. The government says they are doing what is in everyone's best interest. They take land and rights. They later return some of these possessions and rights, but, of course, with a catch 22. This could relate to the man's outlook on life. Deer and sheep both graze and change the land, but only one is good. Thus, the others are killed. Laws are made and only ones that prove positive for the government are kept. These laws define an Indian under the law and under cultural definitions. This is like King learning how to track and identify. The government learns what to look for in a person and how to follow their actions, beliefs, and culture. Both the deer and the Indians would prove to be the negative beings in the land, and would be killed. Once all were killed, the problem would cease to exist.
Morbid but essentially true.
DeleteQuestion 1
ReplyDeleteThe story of the coyote and the ducks is not a saving story. But there is a message behind it. In the story the coyote thought of himself with the best coat of fur in the whole woods. Also that no one could have better fur or feathers then him. Then one day as he was walking in the woods the coyote walked up on a few ducks swimming and singing in the woods. He noticed that they had beautiful feathers. So he asked the ducks if he could have just one of their beautiful feathers. After he got 1 of them he always came back for more. The coyote was greedy to the ducks and kept on coming back to get more feathers. The message to this story is that you are perfect the way you are. You don't need the approval of others.
I think that the coyote should of been happy with what he had to Brodie.
Delete#1
ReplyDeleteI believe that Kings story about the ducks and coyote is more of a story used to relate two things together. He related the relationship between the two back to the relationship between Indians and americans. The ducks being the indians, and the americans wanting more and more from them until theyre gone.
The purpose with this story was to show that the coyote taking from the duck, is much like americans taking away indian rights and leaving them with nothing. By comparing them to this story it gives you a easier way to see the situation.
I'm responding to the third question. King went to New Zealand looking for a job to support himself and live life there. He moved there and realized that the country had a deer problem that was ruining all the foilage around the moutains and the scenic areas. The government was offering jobs to men that wanted to hunt the deer and lower the deer population.So King takes the job. Part of the job was to walk up a mountain and find a cabin where he would stay when he wasnt hunting. After killing his first deer he imediately quit because he couldnt stand it.
ReplyDeleteThe way this story wras into the rest of the chapter and most of the book I believe is that King didn't want to kill the deer out of their native land like the American settlers did to the indians.
#2.
ReplyDeleteWhen I learned that Canadian and U.s government had put so much effort into making the Indians disappear, I was a little bit surprised. I wasn't aware they they posed as such a problem. The Indians were basically owned by the government. Being molded into someone who was the opposite who they were. Indians were slowly disappearing. The government made a deal with them. Join the army? No longer and Indian. Lawyer? No longer and Indian. This was their way of controlling them.
The Indians land quickly disintegrated from 150 million acres, to about 80 million. Which was mostly Dessert, they got everything taken away from them.
Even though most of the legislation's didn't last very long, they still had a huge impact on the Indian culture.
They had their traditions revoked and are a huge reason why Indian's are a "dying breed" as said.
I didn't chose this question to respond to but I agree with your points. Its almost not apparent to us about how cruel the government can be towards people on a lower scale then them.
DeleteIn the coyote and duck story i dont think it is a saving story. I think that the purpose of the story is that you should not trust someone you dont know that well and believe what they say. Also the coyote should have been happy the way he was like the other animals were and not mislead the ducks to giving him their feathers.
ReplyDelete#1)
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter king tells us the story about the Coyote and the ducks. The coyote manipulates the ducks into giving him all there feathers,so that he could make himself look better and please the bear and raven.
I don't believe this is a saving story because it doesn't make an impact. In the story the coyote lies and manipulates the ducks just to please himself. In the end nobody is happy. In the end the coyote has lied and nobody gets "saved" if anything this story showed how he took advantage of the ducks and stole their happiness.
I didn't choose this question, but I think you got it spot on.
DeleteThe story of the coyote and the duck I wouldn't say is a saving story because a saving story is a story that is told to make someones life better or impact them in some way ,in the story the coyote is not making any ones life better or impacting them, he's not making his own better or the ducks and is just trying to impress the raven and bear. He feels hes not good enough the way he is so he trys changing to look better and uses the ducks to do so. He lies to the ducks to make them believe that they should hand over there feathers only to benifit him.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say that the story of the coyote and the duck is a saving story. It wasn't a story that could make you want to change your life or benefit someone in any way. The coyote is trying to impress other animals.
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of this story was to talk about greed. The coyote tricked the ducks multiple times so that he could get their feathers. He didn't take care of them and ended up trashing them. He was greedy and wanted more, more, more. People were saying that it could connect to legislation but I don't understand how.
(#3) King moved to New Zealand looking for a job so that he could support himself. King later realized that in the country they had a deer problem that was ruining all the foilage around the mountains and other areas. The government was hiring people to hunt the deer, so King took the job. When he killed his first deer he didn't like it at all, and he ended up quiting. I think that this chapter is like almost all the other chapters because he didn't want to kill deer out of the native land.
ReplyDelete#2
ReplyDeleteThe government legislates us out of existence by defining who we are in the most racist of ways. #1 if you get a college diploma then your no longer Indian. Or in other words "if you wish to seek advancement in your education than your not a "real Indian." #2 If you become a lawyer than you are no longer Indian. Or "If you wish to try and protect your tribe from our legislation than you are not a "real Indian." Seeing as how lawyers and people with college diplomas make allot of money one could also interpret that as "If you wish to earn any source of income beyond that of a welfare check than you aren't a "real Indian." #3 If you join the military than you're no longer Indian. Or as they really meant to say "If you feel that you should protect your loved ones from threats abroad than you aren't a "real Indian." But my favorite one by far is the 2nd generation clause which basically says "If two generations of Indians enter a marriage based on love than there children are no longer Indian as Indians are emotionless and incapable of love." It is bad enough that they try to define what makes an Indian in the first place, but it's even worse that they choose to define natives as bunch of stupid, incompassionate, lazy welfare check good for nothings. I am not surprised that the federal government is controlling and defining the native american populace. I grew up in it after all. You would not believe the lengths that some people have gone through to disprove my families ancestry.
#1
ReplyDeleteI don't think the story of Coyote and the ducks that king tells is a saving story. The coyote is trying to make himself look better and to make the ducks look bad. The lesson behind it though, is to watch who you trust. The truth will always come out in the end, like it did for the coyote.
Describe in your own words the ways in which the Canadian and US governments have tried to "legislate Indians out of existence." Were you surprised at all to learn how much federal governments are involved in defining who is an Indian, what lands are held by Indians, as well as whether Indians can practice their own traditions?
ReplyDeleteFirst off I believe what happened to the native americans was wrong and any violent act on there part was either defensive or to protect beliefs/culture. Governments were not nice to the indians. They were unfair and sometimes brutal. When treaties were written they were always beneficial to the government and unfair to indians. As far as the government defining who people are, how far have we come from those times. Yes, now we have a black president but look at some of the people that we live around that hate him because hes black or doesnt go near her because shes Asian. Its the same simple idea. People are afraid of other people which will never change. I dont understand why everyone was after the indians except for profit. The idea of breeding out indians just made me sick, its hard for me to believe someone had an idea such as that.
Chapter 5 Q1: It is not a saving story but its purpose was was to help describe King's point of indians and their land becoming smaller but then people begin to leave them alone causing the land to become smaller slower or stopped all together.
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